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12.11.2021
530 Comments
By far "Spec Ops: The Line", as a major part of why it's so horrifying is the player's own complicity in what Walker does – and what happens to Walker at the end. Do you have him torn to pieces by the weight of his guilt, embrace his darkness and become the villain… or do you have him go home and face the consequences for what he'd done? All of them are satisfying conclusions, but which the most satisfying is depends entirely on the player.
I would best say that video games never really had to evolve in order to be great art. Art can be achieved either through works of skill and imagination or they usually have to illicit some kind of emotional response in the player. So contrary to popular belief regarding video games evolving to become great works of art, they've always been art. Old-school video games were more artful in the first way, with it being impressive that a few people could construct a virtual world that someone else could interact with. Video games during the 70's and 80's weren't necessarily understood as well as they are now, so any kind of experimentation with the medium ran the risk of creating some ambitious works of art. And as the video states, video games have evolved in technology like movies have, but video games have also evolved on a design level too. The idea of moving a camera independent of your character was absurd pre-1996 until Super Mario 64 set the standard almost every other game uses now. Art evolves. Video games evolve. Therefore, undoubtedly, video games are art.
They're simply things that work better in video games than other media, the three big examples are Portal 2, the last of us, and Undertale. You can feel that kind of happiness, sadness, annoyance in movies, but in those games, you felt for a longer period and in a more intimate way. The betray of Wheatley hurt me more than any surprise villain Disney, the relief when Ellie escapes those cannibal and I still say that anime is real because it makes Undyne so happy. Video games can make you care about characters even if you don't notice and you can connect more and feel more, and since video games can go as long as they can and it's us who's taking a break between each seance which can go for any period of time.
My counterargument about videogames being art has nothing to do with their ability to evoke emotion, but about their capability to convey expression. I don't consider games with branched-choices like RPGs as art because they priorize the experience of the player, not the expression of the artist. Take something like KOTOR 2, so many written lines, so much thought put in all the alternative insights of others to your actions, yet you will only see a glimpse of them according to your playstyle, and the only way to see all the creative content of the game is with multiple playthroughs, choosing in an artificial way and killing the supposed point of immersion. A game is only art if everything it has was meant to be experienced in a single organic interaction by anyone that plays it.
are Video Games Art? yes, High Art? yeah, there are some games that are incredibly artistic and thematic, even some games that arent so artistic can be considered high art because of how timeless they are and how they can cause the player to feel emotions, whether that be Anger, Sadness, Happiness, Fear or even in some cases Arousal.
oh PLEASE! dont even try to convince me that you havent taken one solid look at a female protag like Bayonetta or Samus in her Zero Suit and didnt take a little too long to look away.
8:00 Aren't those two contradictory statements? "We don't care what you think" and "we are going to prove you are wrong?". If you truly didn't care, you would have nothing to prove.
Are video games art? I don't think Journey was out in 2013, I am not sure Flower was, I know for a fact neither Gris nor Forgotton Anna were, but Limbo and Shadow of the Colossus were, but games I'd personally classify as art.
We've only had one … okay, two cases in gaming history – Hideo Kojima and American McGee. – AND THIS IS AN EXAMPLE THAT YOU HAVE NO COMPLETE CONCEPT OF GAMES THERE IS A LOT OF VISIONERS who made their games their own way or the team was so well-coordinated and coherent in their vision and had such creative freedom that the company gave them great credit trust and so was created, for example, NIER, whose plot eats idiot games for idiots such as MASS EFFECT OR DRAGON AGE, YOKO TARO, FUMITO UEDA, SHINJI MIKAMI,KEN LEVINE – YOU KNOW, CHRIS AVELLONE IS ALREADY A MAN WHOSE VISION IS SO ORIGINAL THAT OBSIDIANS (IDIOTS) did not allow him to contribute more to their products and a whole bunch of other creators, then Team Silent and their best life creation Silent Hill 2, then you have Xenogears the best story JRPG ever made, man before you start talking, first go play the games that are pearls nowadays where games are a common product for the dull and stupid masses and then start speaking out otherwise you turn out to be a complete amateur. NOSTALGIA CRITIC IS 100% MORON AND IDIOT
You know something else which has become "High Art" over time? The novel and writing in general. Poetry has always been considered such. However, plays were daytime entertainment before television existed, and novels did not really exist in any appreciable form until the printing press was invented, and, even then, they were considered vulgar and lesser for the longest time. Frankenstein, Pride and Prejudice, Don Quixote, The Pilgrim's Progress, and many others besides were considered something that only the unlearned would read and consume because to do so would be to lower one's self to the level of a commoner. This is parodied in Jane Austen's little known work Northanger Abbey which is an interesting parody of the gothic genre in general and gives justification to the idea that reading too much into something can cause problems. It was not until Charles Dickens began publishing his novels that the novel became a category of "High Art," and, similarly, film eventually became such. Likely, after a few/several more years the video game will become "High Art" as well simply because fashionability and popularity does, eventually, cause the world to take a closer look at previously "vulgar" and "uncouth" subjects in pursuit of an understanding of the past.
Me personally Doug, I consider The Last of Us, Red Dead Redemption (1 and 2), the Half-Life saga, Bioshock (the first game and Infinite), and Journey to be high-art video games — particularly more so with Journey, Red Dead Redemption, and Half-Life.
There are always people that claim this isn't art or that isn't art… they are all wrong. Art is like religion. It's all about the observer/believer. Anything can become art if you personally view it as art. It's only people who are full of themselves and their opinions that claim something they don't respect isn't art. It's like people who say rap isn't music. They don't need to like it, but rap is music none the less.
Anyone who could ever possibly say "no" to the question Are video games art? or even CAN video games be art? has never heard of Ico, Wander and the colossus, Okami, or Gris.
one of the best examples of video games that can be art is fallout new Vegas with how many choices there are and how there is no one good choice its an amazing videogame on its own but it is one of if not the best games that can and should be considered art
Video games may take a while to develop, but at its core, it's a toy, not really high art. It's a toy that makes men fail to function in life and women get thirsty men oogling for hours because they finally play with them. Does it really contribute to society? It created a society, does that count? Does it help you grow as a person? It helped many people develop some dexterity skills…. Does it help you improve social skills? Well, only through a screen. The world of video game is definitely massive, because of its popularity, but to be honest, it was nurtured from a bunch of 80s kids having their parents give them their first video games as their new toy and expanded to hours of fun and escapism from life.
Honestly for video games, I think that the question on if it is or if it isn't art is alot more complex in America The gaming community has been attacked many many times by both political and none political mediums, and most of the time the only shield has been the first amendment, as its considered Art
Just something I feel that needs to be addressed in these conversations
Syberia comes to mind, Lost Eden, Another World – a lot of games from french designers seem to be on the right path. Japanese as well. For example, the sheer scope of MGS games is mindblowing. MGS games have their odd parts, the campy stuff, the occasional anime-like dialogues, but i almost learned more about communism in Central America from PSP game Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker than from actual history lessons. If Kojima's setting, his interesting mix between real and fictional isn't art then i don't know what art is. And don't get me started on Death Stranding. It's super weird, i don't get everything that's happening in there, but what happened between the game was released, that's pure art. Subversive, guerilla art, but art. The way the trailers were connected, there was so much thought that went into it… Mindblowing. Death Stranding had almost Lynch-like vibes.
Games are Art but Game Developers aren't Artists. They're too obedient to the companies they work for to be thought of as artists. If a company employed teams of Painters to paint paintings but they were told to follow the general narrative and never rock the boat and they acquiesced to that (acquiesced is probably a generous word here) you wouldn't really think of them as artists. You'd just think of them with people with a skill.
Given the amount of effort put into a lot of them if the answer isn't 'yes' or at least 'can be' I donno what art really is. Art is used to communicate emotions to the person observing it (Even if that emotion is 'meh') its easy to say that it is. Also like paintings, books, music, and movies the amount of passion often put into these games is unreal and often takes several years to accomplish not to mention the cost in itself. Much like film a story is being told the only difference is the person watching can influence the story in some why.
By far "Spec Ops: The Line", as a major part of why it's so horrifying is the player's own complicity in what Walker does – and what happens to Walker at the end. Do you have him torn to pieces by the weight of his guilt, embrace his darkness and become the villain… or do you have him go home and face the consequences for what he'd done? All of them are satisfying conclusions, but which the most satisfying is depends entirely on the player.
I'm a titanoboa, this is the real nostalgia critic, is nickname was narinas, the new one is fake
Take a good look and hear, You dumbasses
I’m here because I’m doing a debate in public speaking on this topic
I would best say that video games never really had to evolve in order to be great art. Art can be achieved either through works of skill and imagination or they usually have to illicit some kind of emotional response in the player. So contrary to popular belief regarding video games evolving to become great works of art, they've always been art. Old-school video games were more artful in the first way, with it being impressive that a few people could construct a virtual world that someone else could interact with. Video games during the 70's and 80's weren't necessarily understood as well as they are now, so any kind of experimentation with the medium ran the risk of creating some ambitious works of art. And as the video states, video games have evolved in technology like movies have, but video games have also evolved on a design level too. The idea of moving a camera independent of your character was absurd pre-1996 until Super Mario 64 set the standard almost every other game uses now. Art evolves. Video games evolve. Therefore, undoubtedly, video games are art.
yes they are. next question please.
They're simply things that work better in video games than other media, the three big examples are Portal 2, the last of us, and Undertale. You can feel that kind of happiness, sadness, annoyance in movies, but in those games, you felt for a longer period and in a more intimate way. The betray of Wheatley hurt me more than any surprise villain Disney, the relief when Ellie escapes those cannibal and I still say that anime is real because it makes Undyne so happy. Video games can make you care about characters even if you don't notice and you can connect more and feel more, and since video games can go as long as they can and it's us who's taking a break between each seance which can go for any period of time.
Last of us 2 – a game everyone hates but cannot stop thinking about
Now is 2020 and it seems like video-games are even further away than before at producing high art.
My counterargument about videogames being art has nothing to do with their ability to evoke emotion, but about their capability to convey expression. I don't consider games with branched-choices like RPGs as art because they priorize the experience of the player, not the expression of the artist. Take something like KOTOR 2, so many written lines, so much thought put in all the alternative insights of others to your actions, yet you will only see a glimpse of them according to your playstyle, and the only way to see all the creative content of the game is with multiple playthroughs, choosing in an artificial way and killing the supposed point of immersion. A game is only art if everything it has was meant to be experienced in a single organic interaction by anyone that plays it.
are Video Games Art? yes, High Art? yeah, there are some games that are incredibly artistic and thematic, even some games that arent so artistic can be considered high art because of how timeless they are and how they can cause the player to feel emotions, whether that be Anger, Sadness, Happiness, Fear or even in some cases Arousal.
oh PLEASE! dont even try to convince me that you havent taken one solid look at a female protag like Bayonetta or Samus in her Zero Suit and didnt take a little too long to look away.
0:14 That's New Super Mario Bros Wii
Journey
8:00 Aren't those two contradictory statements? "We don't care what you think" and "we are going to prove you are wrong?". If you truly didn't care, you would have nothing to prove.
Are video games art? I don't think Journey was out in 2013, I am not sure Flower was, I know for a fact neither Gris nor Forgotton Anna were, but Limbo and Shadow of the Colossus were, but games I'd personally classify as art.
All I can say is…………..Breath of The Wild………just saying.
We've only had one … okay, two cases in gaming history – Hideo Kojima and American McGee. – AND THIS IS AN EXAMPLE THAT YOU HAVE NO COMPLETE CONCEPT OF GAMES
THERE IS A LOT OF VISIONERS who made their games their own way or the team was so well-coordinated and coherent in their vision and had such creative freedom that the company gave them great credit trust and so was created, for example, NIER, whose plot eats idiot games for idiots such as MASS EFFECT OR DRAGON AGE, YOKO TARO, FUMITO UEDA, SHINJI MIKAMI,KEN LEVINE – YOU KNOW, CHRIS AVELLONE IS ALREADY A MAN WHOSE VISION IS SO ORIGINAL THAT OBSIDIANS (IDIOTS) did not allow him to contribute more to their
products and a whole bunch of other creators, then Team Silent and their best life creation Silent Hill 2, then you have Xenogears the best story JRPG ever made, man
before you start talking, first go play the games that are pearls nowadays where games are a common product for the dull and stupid masses and then start speaking out otherwise you turn out to be a complete amateur. NOSTALGIA CRITIC IS 100% MORON AND IDIOT
George RR Martin is a 72 year old writer, and Roger Ebert is a 78 year old film critic
Let's just say that these aren't the right people to answer such a big debate
The short answer yes
You know something else which has become "High Art" over time? The novel and writing in general. Poetry has always been considered such. However, plays were daytime entertainment before television existed, and novels did not really exist in any appreciable form until the printing press was invented, and, even then, they were considered vulgar and lesser for the longest time. Frankenstein, Pride and Prejudice, Don Quixote, The Pilgrim's Progress, and many others besides were considered something that only the unlearned would read and consume because to do so would be to lower one's self to the level of a commoner. This is parodied in Jane Austen's little known work Northanger Abbey which is an interesting parody of the gothic genre in general and gives justification to the idea that reading too much into something can cause problems. It was not until Charles Dickens began publishing his novels that the novel became a category of "High Art," and, similarly, film eventually became such. Likely, after a few/several more years the video game will become "High Art" as well simply because fashionability and popularity does, eventually, cause the world to take a closer look at previously "vulgar" and "uncouth" subjects in pursuit of an understanding of the past.
Games are the next dimension of art?…Maybe.
Writing : 1st Dimension
Flat Drawing : 2nd Dimension
Depth Simulating Drawing : 3d Dimension
Movie/Animation : 4th Dimension
Games/Interactive Experience :
5th Dimension.
??
Try Persona 5. You might just like it.
Video games are a craft that typically act as a vessel for art.
If you think video games are not art go check out The Last Of Us!
Me personally Doug, I consider The Last of Us, Red Dead Redemption (1 and 2), the Half-Life saga, Bioshock (the first game and Infinite), and Journey to be high-art video games — particularly more so with Journey, Red Dead Redemption, and Half-Life.
There's definetly a few games that I'd point to as good examples of being art. Undertale, Dark Souls and Bioshock being chief amongst them.
I would love to see a follow up to this taking into account things like Undertale, The Last Of Us and Doki Doki: Literature Club.
Mario 3D world is art
Did you really just call video games “ a cheap watered down movie?” I really can’t believe that
Kojima,David Cage and Sony studios have surpassed movies big time in their games.
There are always people that claim this isn't art or that isn't art… they are all wrong. Art is like religion. It's all about the observer/believer. Anything can become art if you personally view it as art. It's only people who are full of themselves and their opinions that claim something they don't respect isn't art. It's like people who say rap isn't music. They don't need to like it, but rap is music none the less.
Anyone who could ever possibly say "no" to the question Are video games art? or even CAN video games be art? has never heard of Ico, Wander and the colossus, Okami, or Gris.
Two words for you critic: Xenoblade Chronicles
What about the box ART
one of the best examples of video games that can be art is fallout new Vegas with how many choices there are and how there is no one good choice its an amazing videogame on its own but it is one of if not the best games that can and should be considered art
Dark Souls, Psychonauts, Halo, Minecraft.
Video games may take a while to develop, but at its core, it's a toy, not really high art. It's a toy that makes men fail to function in life and women get thirsty men oogling for hours because they finally play with them. Does it really contribute to society? It created a society, does that count? Does it help you grow as a person? It helped many people develop some dexterity skills…. Does it help you improve social skills? Well, only through a screen. The world of video game is definitely massive, because of its popularity, but to be honest, it was nurtured from a bunch of 80s kids having their parents give them their first video games as their new toy and expanded to hours of fun and escapism from life.
Honestly for video games, I think that the question on if it is or if it isn't art is alot more complex in America
The gaming community has been attacked many many times by both political and none political mediums, and most of the time the only shield has been the first amendment, as its considered Art
Just something I feel that needs to be addressed in these conversations
Short answer: yes
Long answer: yes they are
Some of them, yes.
Syberia comes to mind, Lost Eden, Another World – a lot of games from french designers seem to be on the right path. Japanese as well. For example, the sheer scope of MGS games is mindblowing. MGS games have their odd parts, the campy stuff, the occasional anime-like dialogues, but i almost learned more about communism in Central America from PSP game Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker than from actual history lessons. If Kojima's setting, his interesting mix between real and fictional isn't art then i don't know what art is. And don't get me started on Death Stranding. It's super weird, i don't get everything that's happening in there, but what happened between the game was released, that's pure art. Subversive, guerilla art, but art. The way the trailers were connected, there was so much thought that went into it… Mindblowing. Death Stranding had almost Lynch-like vibes.
Games are Art but Game Developers aren't Artists. They're too obedient to the companies they work for to be thought of as artists. If a company employed teams of Painters to paint paintings but they were told to follow the general narrative and never rock the boat and they acquiesced to that (acquiesced is probably a generous word here) you wouldn't really think of them as artists. You'd just think of them with people with a skill.
Anyone who wonders if video games are art, I got four words for you: Red Dead Redemption 2
If people making sandwiches is considered an art form then why isn’t video games
Given the amount of effort put into a lot of them if the answer isn't 'yes' or at least 'can be' I donno what art really is. Art is used to communicate emotions to the person observing it (Even if that emotion is 'meh') its easy to say that it is. Also like paintings, books, music, and movies the amount of passion often put into these games is unreal and often takes several years to accomplish not to mention the cost in itself. Much like film a story is being told the only difference is the person watching can influence the story in some why.
Okami, Subnautica, Papers Please, Final Fantasy VII (original), ABZU, The Vanishing of Ethan Carter, StarCraft, and StarCraft 2…enough said.
the perfect example of games being art would be the Ori games… if that is not art then nothing is.
When he said bioshock infinite I felt like I was in heaven
If yoko ono can be an artist, any videogame development, can be
Six years later and this video still holds up big time